But just like moving the needle a little bit to make a few people a bit richer, that's giving me no sense of purpose at all. Hi, my name is Rasmus. I'm here today with you, Christoffer Bouet. Thanks a lot for coming and welcome. Thanks for having me. So, what's consuming most of your energy these times? Well, we're about to do a fundraising round rather soon and are in that gap where at one time I'm spending a lot of my time gearing up for that, doing decks, doing data rooms and preparing the business for a funding round. While taking so much time away from the business, we still need to keep our growth rates running. So, suddenly having a lot of time, I'm going to be able to do a fundraising round. So, having double the amount of work is keeping me super busy at the moment. That's a great introduction just to your daily life right here and now. So, let's just take a step back and tell us who you are, what has been your journey to this point? Yes. As said, my name is Christoffer and for a formal introduction, CEO and founder of Contribe. I have a classical business background. started out quite early doing small businesses, actually doing e-commerce way back when I was like 16 years old. Did all sorts of not very successful projects, but super learning. And then on the more professional side, I started out in business, actually started out in sales, which is a great way to kick off your career in my opinion. And then I was swept into the whole world of management consulting, strategy consulting. And actually was there for like four years. So, I had an idea that that was my journey, staying there, becoming a partner and with everything that takes. But among other things, I got super tired of that life and not really moving the needle on anything. So, I just missed getting out there and really moving the needle on anything. So, I just missed getting out there and really move and change something. And that sent me back into the world of tech startups where I had a short stint as a CEO of another company. And then we found a Contribe to trying bridging doing good with actually earning money. That crazy gap. But I'm solving that right now. Let's hear more about the story of Contribe. Let's hear more about the story of Contribe. And I'd like to know and let the listeners know exactly what is it you do. And let's get super practical about what it actually is. Definitely. Well, so as I said, I was the CEO of another tech startup. We're doing great. We did a full turnaround. Everything was going well. But I still missed meaning and change. And wanted to be like, how can I put a positive impact on the world with my work. So, in the late summer of 2022, I met my two co-founders, Tobias and Lasse. And they were actually already brewing on an idea in the impact space. Not what we are today, but brewing on what eventually became Contribe. And the whole idea, everything we do stems from the fact that the world is changing quite a lot. We have a lot of consumers, especially the younger ones from Gen Z specifically, who are having a totally different way of seeing the world, totally different preferences. It's way more on personalization, social aspects, and maybe most importantly, purpose. impact. So, what we've built is basically a plugin. If you're an e-commerce store, it's on your product page. It's in your card. It's maybe a checkout. We can put it in different places. But when you go and buy something, then as part of your purchase, there's included a great, good course. It could be everything from supporting mental health among young people. It can be environmental. It can be anything in between that, but chosen with the company. So, you go in and then there's like support mental health, support planting trees, support collecting plastic from the oceans. Totally free from you as a consumer. And why is that important? I mean, I've heard you say this before. Yeah. I mean, you're not just sort of pressing a button or saying, okay, I want to donate an extra 5% on my purchase. This is all on the merchant side. Why is that important? It's super important. And it's something, even though super big brands ask us to build the solution that you just talked about, where you can donate with your own money. The reason why is that we believe that it's the company's responsibility to, they are the ones producing, they are the ones selling stuff that might not have a positive impact on the world. They are the ones that are responsible. It's not you as an end consumer who needs to lift the full burden. It's the companies who earn a lot of money, who have the power to do something and go forward with it. Yeah. And that's just like a total value of contrived that we'll never shy away from. Right. So, that's why. And then, yeah, then you click, you get something extra, you get a good feeling, you're part of a community, you're part of something bigger. And when you do it, then finish the purchase, you can also follow along with what happened, when was my donation actually made. Here's a picture of happy children who got some of the aid that you gave them and so on. So, it's a whole nother way of building in loyalty. Right. And so, just to be clear, your customers are the merchants? Our customers are the merchants. All right. And how many do you have roughly now? Roughly 300 in 12 countries around the globe. Maybe just talk to me a little bit about what kinds of businesses they are, at what stage of their growth are they at? Why do they accept the meeting with you guys? Yeah. Good question. I would say that most of our customers right now is in like the mid-range. So, not super small, newly founded companies, nor huge enterprises who are having too many complexities to work with us. So, it's like mid-sized from 1, 1.5 million euros in revenue up to 20, 30 million euros in revenue or something in that range. And I think that a lot of, which is super positive, a lot of these companies, they actually want to do something. They do want to do good. They do know that the purpose-driven consumer is coming and they're coming fast. But they are also buying into the fact that what we do in Contribe is actually good for your business. So, when you're using Contribe as a merchant, we see that on average right now, you lift your revenue with 20%, which is a crazy amount for doing something good. So, we are affecting conversions and retention rates and basically everything that you as an e-commerce store wants to improve. Yeah. You're also right that you're about loyalty, essentially. Totally, yeah. So, how do you see those shoppers coming back because of Contribe's contribution to the shopping experience? Yeah. I think when you use Contribe as a consumer, which is what we call the users, is that you actually get a good feeling that you normally don't get. Like, it's totally psychological. It's a good feeling to do good. That's just like totally incorporated in the human brain. And when we get good feelings, we want to get those good feelings again. That's also totally natural. So, what we see is that when users try Contribe on a merchant e-commerce store, and which, of course, we build it into the flow. So, you also, you can follow, as I said, you maybe get a follow-up email saying, thanks for your purchase. You're also part of, you did this, this, and that with Contribe. We can see that they come back 30% faster than the normal users. So, what we put it back to is basically that it's not just a purchase. It's something bigger. And that feeling, you want to get that again and again and again. You briefly mentioned the part about or the argument around the sort of generational divide. There might be sort of in this and that might be playing a role here. And when I was researching for this interview, I was thinking about that because I don't think I have quite as strong feelings about it myself personally. I'm from 1977. And when I speak to my kids, for example, two of them are grownups now. They talk about it in a different way. I hear you talking about it in a different way. There seems to be something that's super important for people over 50, maybe, that they need to understand about the value proposition that you offer, the kinds of consumers that you appeal to. And I'm sure that you must be having this discussion with prospects all the time that they need to understand and sort of get beyond their traditional thinking about it. Talk to me more about that. Definitely. I mean, what we see, we see a lot of natural skepticism and I understand that. A lot of executives and founders are in the older generations. It's not many Gen Z people who are running businesses yet. And there really is a cliff right now that I think is probably the biggest ever, literally the biggest ever, because we're seeing a generation who's born on the internet who are having a totally different value set. It's not the whole classical way of like, we are value-driven consumers. We go to work to provide a family, buy a home and so on. A lot of those things are just out of reach firsthand. And also because all the stuff that's happening in the geopolitical environment, people are just way more conscious, way more conscious, way more scared about the environment, mental health issues and so on. So, I mean, we're proving that every day. But whenever we talk to prospects, it almost always come up. And what I'm normally saying is just like, try it out, do a free trial. I don't care. This is going to work. I know you're not the main target persona for this, but a lot of your consumers will be. You're probably using a lot of software, a lot of stuff that you're doing that won't work on yourself either. That's normally how it is. And Contribe is no different. So we're fighting that over and over. Also people that are like, basically don't believe our results because they're so great. That's also one of our biggest challenges. So I think that what we're doing right now is basically just, we're on such a, we're on a long journey. We're on such a journey of getting people to try it, basically. Yeah. Let's try to get into the minds of the shopper that is pressing the buttons. I'm sure you talk to some of them. We do. We do. Do interviews with the shoppers in the end that will be going through that experience of pressing the button and feeling something and having some sort of psychological reaction to using your features on an online shop. What are they saying? What is it that they say they feel and experience? They say that they get this great feeling. I mean, doing a purchase, I heard this once, doing a purchase is one of the largest burdens of people, psychological. Like purchasing stuff is actually a burden. You want to receive the, if you buy a t-shirt, you're happy for the t-shirt, but making the actual purchase, spending money, people don't like that. People do like getting something extra and they do like being good towards other people. And what, when we do, we've done a lot of testing with our end users, the consumers. What they're saying is, is that like, I get more attached to the brand. I get a good feeling whenever I shop. I love, I've never seen anyone involve me like this and really asking. Normally it's just like, okay, so the CEO chose a project close to his or her heart. But suddenly I'm part of it. I feel, I feel involved. I feel asked about what I want as a consumer. And, and, and even that feeling is not really happening anywhere. I mean, we, I think we're one of the only software where you actually involve the customers in a choice. That's not even normal. So, so we can just see that they're like, they're just saying it, what we want to hear. They're saying to themselves. They're like, if a shop uses this, I would buy more. I would come back more often. I would be more attached to the brand. That's like what we just keep, keep hearing. And we also, we also see it. We see it in Trustpilot reviews. We see it from our, our merchants that when they send this out in newsletters, people are writing back like, this is the greatest initiative ever. So, so people are just feeling like a really great sense of being able to do something good, which they just love. And it makes them more loyal to the brand. Right. I think it's, it's clear what it is contrived is, is about. I understand the pitch, but let's try to go back and sort of talk more about what you say around purpose and the sort of the larger story and what's driving your own motivation to run this company. company. And again, I hear you talk a lot about that word purpose. So I'd love to hear more about what that actually means to you. Yeah. I mean, a great question. I think it, it, it kind of comes back and I think I was, I've been, I'm still relatively young. How old are you? 29, 29. So still relatively, relatively young. And, and I think that, that my own journey started with like, kind of, uh, I want to earn money. I want to be a big, uh, entrepreneur and, and, and sort of that stuff. And then the older I have become, the more I'm thinking like, I think it's back to also the consulting days where it's just like, you're moving the needle so little so that some people, uh, whether it's the executives or the company or it's, uh, shareholders can earn a little bit more. That's not creating any meaning for, for me. I mean, it's, it's, I love building something. I love seeing it thrive and growth and, and all that, but just like moving the needle a little bit to, to make a few people a bit richer. That's not very, I mean, that's giving me no sense of purpose at all. And I think what, what I wanted, what I wanted with my life and career and everything is like when, when I'm old and done, working, I want to look back and be like, I made the world a better place for some people. Quite, quite simple. And, and that can be done as you know, in million ways, but I made some people's lives better one way or another. Uh, and I don't think, as I said, moving the needle or people earning a little bit more money is probably not making their lives any, any better. Um, so I was just, I mean, three years ago, four years ago, I was just getting quite aware that, I wanted to do this. I wanted to, uh, create a company that left a purse, uh, positive impact on, on the world. Um, and where there's purpose, where I can say that we are building something that are creating jobs that are earning money. Also too, we have investors and we have stakeholders, like all other companies, but there will also be people that are getting a better life because of Contribe. And, uh, that's happening right now. Actually, we, we are, we are generating millions of, uh, of, of euros to initiatives that wouldn't have received anything if it wasn't for, uh, for what we're doing. So, so I think that's, and I think that's quite in line with Gen Z and what is happening with, with the younger generation is that the classical, like get a high salary, high job security, people really don't care about that anymore. They don't care about that anymore. That is not, that is not what gets you up and, and, and, and, and, in the morning. So the, when you, when you pitch, I'm sort of imagining that that is a part of the pitch to a prospect, right? Definitely. Yeah. So you're telling the story or sort of that whole wonderful mission, um, of let's get to something that is truly meaningful and in our business lives, as well as our, sort of our lives, um, holistically. Um, do you, do those older generations then feel that, okay, I, I apparently have to sort of go through that extra step of also adding purpose or do they actually embrace it and say, okay, yeah, I'm, I'm with you. We, we need to do both or what's the reaction from the customers when you pitch them? Um, it's actually quite different. I would say we, we have the no sayers, not really no sayers, non believers who are like, this is simply stupid and I don't believe it. And I don't understand why anyone in, in the whole wide world would think this was a great idea, nor at all believe that it would improve anything for my business. Um, and, and then we have obviously the ones that, that, that are the great customers who jumps on the, on, on, on, on the wagon right away. But we have a lot of people who was like slowly being convinced about the idea. And, and as we talked about before, getting into the belief that it might not be for me, but it might be for someone else. I think, I think that's where we are the most right now. It's people saying, okay, I can, I can see that some people would enjoy this. I do know that there's a lot of pressure on companies right now for doing, uh, I mean, with whole ESG and stuff there, there's, there's more pressure on social and environmental impact than, than, than ever before. So there's a lot of companies saying like, yeah, we, we, we do know, we do know that we need to do something. Um, and, and this might also be a great way of doing it. That's, that's easy for us. We don't have to change our food production or, run a huge project on, on, on, on this and involve a lot of people. Contribe is quite straightforward. It's a great start. Um, I think we have a lot who is moving towards that. And also customers who said no a year ago, who's coming back now and saying, okay, let's, let's give it a try. Let's see what, what's the buzz about? Because they can also see that maybe their peers or their competitors are using Contribe suddenly. So, so there's also, I mean, there's, a lot of like, uh, uh, limbing effects in, in e-com, uh, and in brands. There's a lot of people being like, if my competitor is using this, I need to look at it. Um, so, so we have like this self-enforcing virality in our product. There's something that really fascinates me about it. Yeah. Because in e-commerce, we've sort of spent the last, frankly, two decades on optimizing the shopping experience online and just removing all friction we could find. Yeah. Um, sort of making it as, as fast as, as efficient as possible to get to that, uh, checkout button and, and go through the, the, the payment gateway. And now suddenly you are introducing an extra step to, to that user experience process. Yeah. But what I'm hearing is that you were saying that the psychological effects it has on people basically sort of trumps that, um, slight friction that you are introducing to the, the checkout button. Like a process. Totally. What, what do, how do customers or sort of e-commerce managers, we, we act to that fact that they need to introduce an extra step to something that they've tried to optimize, uh, the hell out of for years and years. It's, it, it's, it's quite funny because I would say, I mean, what's really important to say about Contribe is that we still try to make it as frictionless as possible. Contribe is always optional. So you're never forced to use Contribe. Contribe is like, if you want to, you can, you can press the button, you can donate for free, but you can also just run through the, and, and, and purchase whatever you want to do. Um, we do have a lot of e-commerce managers who comes from the, as you say, the 20 years of making everything totally easy, totally frictionless. You should, I mean, you should basically just look at the item and then the purchase is made. Uh, I don't really believe it. To be honest, I think, I think the world is, uh, that is changing here as well. I mean, if you look at the most forward thinking, let's say American brands, they have someone that are like, uh, really front runners on new ideas. They are actually starting to have really complex setups. So a lot of choices, totally crowded product pages, totally crowded, uh, cards and checkouts with a lot of choices. Where you're saying that the whole idea of it being super straightforward, super easy is basically outdated. People, people want more, people want an experience and what we can win in terms of up sales and conversion, uh, optimizations and, and so on with giving some opportunities, giving something free here, uh, having upsell plugins, all that stuff is basically better for us than having that totally neat. Uh, uh, buying process. So, so I'm on the, I'm on the team that like, uh, this is the way, but I'm, I'm fighting a lot of e-commerce managers on that. Yeah. A lot of them. I can totally imagine that. I mean, I think many of them see the ideal, uh, of some of the ideal experience of an Apple pay, for example, or Klarna, where it just so incredibly smooth and frictionless. And now suddenly you, you want to introduce something else. You also could consider, um, as a shopper. One thing I'm super interested in is that you're on your website, you're communicating to shoppers as well. Yeah. Which was a little bit of a surprise to me. Maybe that's again, because I'm, I'm slightly older. Yeah. Um, I would have, uh, sort of imagined that this would just be a pure B2B play, uh, no communication to the shoppers in the end. Why do you do that? I would say, uh, first off, you mentioned, mentioned Klarna, uh, yourself, um, when you, we are B2B play, but we can't, uh, divide the fact that the users of Contribe is consumers. So, so I would call ourselves no matter what a B2B2C play. Um, and we want firsthand, we want people to recognize us. So when they are at the, um, the checkout page or in the car, or whatever, we want people to like recognize the Contribe name, Contribe logo, just as they recognize Klarna and Apple Pay and Trustpilot or what, whatever that, that might be present there. So, so that's, that's the first. Um, and, and, and the second thought about it is that our idea from the beginning, uh, and, and which we're building a lot towards right now is basically building a full, uh, cycle ecosystem with Contribe. So we want to, uh, build towards the end user as well. I mean, we, we have a vision and a dream that in the future Contribe will basically be its own kind of marketplace, uh, buying solution where you can, no matter where you're purchasing, you can have a free good course included and you can follow along, you can get rewards. It can be social, basically a whole new way that will, I mean, compete with all the ways that, that, uh, businesses are doing customer acquisition right now. Um, and I think with, with everything that's also happening in the world right now and with the new generation, this is what's needed for, uh, for, for e-commerce. So as a merchant, you would sign up to be part of your universe and then you would be, both be present on your sort of marketplace experience. And then you would all, you would be present in the shopping experience. Yeah. Controlled directly by the, the merchant. Yes. Right. Exactly. So you use both part of it. And then what Contribe is today will be the premium solution. If you really want to have the full experience and really want to get the, uh, the, the extra performance metrics and the extra brand value. Um, but, but, but basically it is that, that Contribe has the opportunity with what we have seen from our 3 million consumers already. Contribe has the opportunity to become a new customer acquisition channel. And, and, and when you have that opportunity, you just need to follow that because that's something that, uh, the merchants want to pay a lot for. And, um, it's, it's really a big opportunity. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Can you, can you maybe tell me about, uh, more particular examples? Like what are the brands that are really getting it right where you felt, okay, they totally understood the value that they can bring to their shoppers? What did they do differently? How did they think about it in a different way? How did they sort of organize or orchestrate the shopping experience in a, in a better way? Yeah. I think the important stuff, if, if Contribe should really give you value, you need to totally incorporate it into your brand. Um, we do have out of, as I said, our 300 customers, we do have some, who is using it like really only as the best as the plugin that we just talked about. So it's, it's at no way part of your processes or email flows or marketing campaigns or anything. It's just like, it's just a plugin, which is fine. It will work. It will still be a great experience and, and, and everything. But, but the ones where we have really seen great results is the ones that are saying like, now this will be an, a totally integral part of, our business. So we'll create a sub pages where we talk about Contribe. We talk about why we do what we do. We talk about the different courses that we're supporting. Um, we're having it as part of our marketing campaigns. We're maybe even using it in ads and, and, and stuff. Um, and we're also using it in our whole like newsletter and mail campaigns. Um, the, some of the companies has like, we, we had a case the other day. Danish, uh, like outdoor shop. Who just like, we met them. Uh, actually we, we reached out to them. Um, and, and they just love the idea of Contribe. And then they're just like, we're going full on, on this. We'll build this totally into the heart. We love the idea. We love that we are able with our business to do something good. So they just build it totally into every part of, of the company and just live like Patagonia is, is a great example who, who, who, who, who, who. basically created the idea of donating for your brand. They're doing the same here. They're like, this will just be part of it. This will just, whenever you shop at us, you just know that this is part of the experience. And the ones that are doing that are seeing crazy results. They're really seeing something. They're really using it as an advantage, as a part of the community. And I think that's where it gets kind of magical. I think I can easily appreciate how you're fascinated and in love with your own product and the business that you now run successfully. That's great. But I want to hear your thoughts on, is this part of a bigger movement? Basically, are there other companies that are doing similar stuff that you follow? How do you fit in a larger movement? We talked about the generational differences that you're seeing, but what else is happening that you essentially tap into? I mean, a lot of stuff is happening. First off, if we just quickly go over the generational thing again, we do have Gen Z, which are 2.5 billion consumers. It's the biggest generation ever. In five years, they'll have the most spending power of all generations. It's like really a power of a consumer group who's joining the markets. Other than that, if we go beyond just the generations. I mean, if you look at like, let's say IBM, the tech company are doing a report every second year on consumer behavior, which is quite big and elaborated. And already two years ago, they said that the purpose-driven consumer was now the biggest group. And I think right now it's like 50% in the latest report from 24. So what is happening is that we went from like, I buy stuff because I need it. I buy it to, which is the last 20 years, is I buy stuff out of value to me. Like I like the product, but it also has a certain value. It has a certain maybe status or identity or whatever to now that out of all consumers worldwide, no matter age, no matter geography, whatever, it's now purpose. So I buy out of this aligning with my own purpose. It aligns with my own values. Of course, the product needs to work. Of course, the product needs to be something that you desire. But it's basically what IBM is saying is that the purpose-driven consumer is the largest group right now. And there is a lot, a lot, a lot of consumers who are saying, I mean, plus 80% who are saying like, I would never buy from a brand who do this or this, who doesn't act on social issues or who are using child labor or whatever it might be. And I think for many that would be like, yeah, that's obvious. But it isn't. Because 10 years ago, this was not at all the fact. And I think the percentage on this will just be higher and higher and higher in the coming 20 years that we look forward to. I think I want to turn the discussion towards yourself again and your learnings, what you sort of unearthed through that process of building this. And I mean, I understand that you have so many thoughts about how you can, in fact, align your own purpose to the purpose of shoppers and the purpose of the merchants that are buying the tech. But sort of on a deeper level, if you could share some of your reflections around what's the journey been for you? What did you learn through all of this? Yeah. I mean, it's been a wild journey, first off, with pivots. And I mean, a lot of stuff has already happened in our relatively short lifespan of Contribe. But I think what changed a lot, especially on the merchant side, was that when we started Contribe, we had like an hypothesis that a lot of the brands would want to do this out of like, basically just wanted to do good stuff and wanted to create impact. So we had an idea that like, of course, not everyone, but there would be a lot of brands who would be, we don't care about anything else that we want to make the world a better place. And that was not the case when we started talking to brands. I mean, I've sit with like, the greenest, most environmental friendly, most impact driven brands who are speaking so loudly in all commercials on LinkedIn about how they just want to do good. And then the founder or whatever, not to talk bad about anyone, but like, then when I talk to them, they're like, we only do this if we can earn money from it. So we thought we figured out quite soon that basically no one does anything in business out of out of a good heart. And that was actually, that was actually quite, that was a, that was a surprise to you. That was, that was a bit of a surprise because we thought that we did know that 90% of our customers wouldn't think like that. But we, but we did think that there were like some of the brands there in all markets. I think a lot of people, when they hear this would, would, would have some brands that they think about that, where you would think that this is so, such a big part of the brand that they do it because they really care about it. And they might do. It's not to say that they don't care about it, but they're, doing it with business in mind. And that was quite a surprise, I would say. So we figured out that even the best, best ones, they wanted to, to, to earn money. And that just meant that we quite, yeah, we need to change and focus way more on like why consumers want this, how it's improving your performance metrics, all that. That is, that is, that is the main part of our communications towards, towards merchants right now. So it's like, you can earn, you can increase your performance, you can earn more money. You can do all this great stuff, attract new consumers. Plus you're making the world a better place. But it's not, you're making the world a better place. And then plus you, you are earning more money. It's the other way around. So it's like, we all re, we're always able to get meetings and, and talk to people. Because what we do is good. But the selling point at the end of the day, that is attracting customers, it's brand value. It's all the classical stuff that you would look at as a marketeer. Yeah, basically. So, so that was, that was super surprising for us to, to figure that out. But, but I'm rather glad that we did so. Yeah. Yeah. What about all of the, the greenwashing discussions and sort of the selection of what NGOs to, to, to, to curate from, to curate from, and that you allow the shoppers to support. There's got to be a lot of vetting going on there. And in, in so many cases in the last many years where, you know, this kind of either philanthropy or NGO work has been taking place. We've, we've seen so many cases of NGOs not being able to live up to their promises, for example. I'm sure that must be a concern to your customers as well. It's, it's, it's, it's definitely a concern. And it's definitely something that we hear almost with all our customers. But I would say when we started Contribe, we were like, scared, literally scared of it. I, we were so scared that like, oh, we're going to fund a terror organization, or we'll get in a big shit storm, and then our company will close down. I mean, we're really scared about that. And one of my co-founders, he's run his own, NGO's lawyer, and, and, and him and his team built a quite great process for how we onboard and vet NGOs, basically. So we have like 12 step process that we run through on all NGOs to, to ensure that everything that we have on the platform is working. And then we're using a lot of our, when we get new customers, and they do have partnerships with NGOs, we also use that to feed into our, supply. So basically, nothing has ever happened. Nothing on the, on the table, but like, basically, nothing has happened yet. And because we're getting so good at the vetting process, we're seeing also less and less questions from, from our customers. But I, with, with that being said, it, it has been a big, worry for, for a long time. I can imagine time that. But do you have a plan for like, crisis communication when it does go wrong at some point, which it must inevitably do, because that's been the story of NGO support work, you know, for decades, if not longer. Yeah. I think, I think, I mean, how we look at it at, in, in, in Contribe is that, first off, we're a software company. We're not our own NGO. We're not, and it's not to like, pull, put away responsibility, but we're a software company. We provide a software. We do vet stuff as well, but we shouldn't put too much on our shoulders on like saying that everything is totally great. There's also a responsibility with, with the brand. With that being said, we do have a process for what to do and how to do it. And it's also quite important to say that we have like a 90 day span of, from, we get the money, uh, up until the latest that we have to pay the NGOs. So we are able to like, if something bad happens, we actually, we, we do have the opportunity to like, say, we don't give the money to this NGO because we can see something wrong is going, going on and then direct it to another, uh, project. So, so we like, we're quite precautious with what we do. Um, and another thing on the whole greenwashing stuff that, that we also, it's like, like a core value of Contribe is saying that using Contribe doesn't make you sustainable or anything. We actually had like a, like a metaphor for like when we enter, uh, the, our office, we don't use the word, the word sustainability. We have nothing, we have nothing to do with sustainability. We are directing money towards good courses. We're doing good stuff. We're making your consumers happy, but, but you should never be able to like, use Contribe as a means to say, oh, we're so sustainable and everything is good. And now our production is also good. Like if you produce bad stuff in China, we have nothing to do about it. You can still use Contribe, but we always encourage you to, to do better than that. So we try to, we try to like go away from all the claims and all that stuff, because that would put us directly in the, uh, in, in the fire of, uh, shit, shit storms and greenwashing claims. I can definitely pick through that. If we, uh, if we leave that topic, um, sort of behind and think about what other entirely other sort of trends you see in tech and e-commerce and marketing, I'm, I'm keen to get your sort of thoughts on what's happening outside of the core business that you're sort of working on right now, but that you still feel is interesting, uh, for e-commerce businesses. Definitely. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm of that, uh, opinion that a lot of the giants from the last 20 years, um, are starting to lack a lot again with the whole generational stuff thing and how we, how the world is, is, is, is changing. So, so not to bash anyone, but like trust pilot as a thing, who's been a big, glorious company in, in, in, in, in, in, in Denmark, specifically, um, I've never used that. Um, I've never used that. I would never use it. And I believe that all my peers wouldn't either. Like that's, that's not how you, you, you look at you, you ask your friends and you look on, uh, social proof and from influencers and all that, but you're not scared of getting cheated on, on, on the internet, which is what trust pilot was, was built on for instance. So I think that whole, the whole, like convenience, trust discount was shying way more away from that. Um, and, and then what I think is super, super interesting is the whole, uh, social way of shopping. Um, I think that, that will be, and we'll try to build that into Contribe, but, but I think that would be, that that's the future. Um, like you shop with your friends, it's way more, um, it's way more like a social network, the way you shop and you're like, you're, you're looking into peers and influencers and, and, and that whole way of, of doing it. Because everyone is so attached and they're so attached with so me and me and all, and all that. Um, and I, and I think that would really, I mean, that would really change the way you're doing it. I mean, every, every year I go to, uh, I go to Italy, um, and, um, go to a kind of a, it's called a mall, which is a like very luxurious outlet. And when I'm there, there's always people from, uh, especially Asia who are traveling to there, who are standing with, uh, a screen and recording live shopping sessions directly from there to, to different people. Um, and, and we haven't seen that in, in, in Europe yet in, in, in, in that sense, but I think that will come. I think, would you also integrate, for example, to, to live shopping or could you sort of imagine your customers, um, sort of promoting the fact that you're giving to a good cause while you're live shopping, for example? Yeah, definitely. Live shopping through so many influencers who will, uh, influencers who are collecting their community and saying, hey, we can donate together with Contribe, use my unique link and, and, and all that. I think, I think, I think the shopping experience will, will be, it will just be way different. I don't think, I don't think that it will only be, you go to a website and then you purchase something online. I think it will be on all sorts of different channels. You'll shop directly from stuff you see on Instagram. Um, I think, I think that, that whole world is super, super, super interesting. And I think that, um, that is, that is basically how the future will, will, uh, will be in, uh, in, in, in the way we, we, we shop. So, totally different. I think there's, um, there's, if you think back like 10 years ago, there was a lot of hype around the, sort of the, the blend of, um, storytelling or content and, and the products you would buy on an online store. And I know that many in the industry felt that it never truly happened. Um, but I'm still super interested in hearing your, your side to that. Or your sort of your interpretation of what's going to happen with that whole mix of storytelling. You're talking about social and shopping, sort of marrying, uh, the two and the psychological effects that, that might have of alignment between purpose and, and, and, and buying stuff you need or value as you said. Um, but what about storytelling in general as a larger topic? Is that still a thing with the merchants that you encounter or has it really just become more about how do we, sort of create great shopping experiences again? I still, I still think, I always think storytelling is, I mean, I'm, I'm a big fan of storytelling in all sorts, also in, in, in running our own business. So, so I, I think it's still important to, to do storytelling. Um, but I don't think you're able to put a story down on the consumer as much as you were 10 years ago. I don't think you're able to like force people. It needs to be, authenticity is important in a whole nother way. No. I also don't think that like, I think we'll keep having a big, beautiful, uh, billboards with models and famous people. But, but I think like the authentic, I see some, some brands, some of our customers were like, when you see the product pictures, when you see their ads, when you see their big campaigns, it's normal people. It looks like your friends like, okay, I can relate to that. I can relate to David Beckham in, in underwear in, in a, in a big billboard as I saw the other day. Like that's not relatable. You need, you need it to be like authentic and relatable and then do the storytelling out of that. Um, and, and I think that again, a lot of the big, big, big, big brands today who are still running kind of the old, uh, scheme, they should adapt to, to, to that sense, like making it more relatable for, for everyday life. People, people want to see that and see that authentic storytelling. Yeah. You know, there's, it feels to me like there's just nowhere around also talking about AI, of course. And as part of this, obviously discussion, you both have the avatars that are certainly not very real, but that, that are sometimes part of the, the shopping experience or the promotion of products that has really started to, to happen now. Um, what's your take on, on that? You're talking about the need for us to sort of, as brands to have, um, um, to sort of create very authentic experiences and, um, sort of using AI avatars, for example, is certainly not what I would consider very authentic, but there's a lot of hype around it. How do you see that whole space now? Um, I mean, I would, I would say that AI will make stuff possible. I mean, with avatars and stuff that, that can be so authentic that it looks totally real. Um, so, so it will be, there will be, there will be, there will still be some AI, but I, but I think that there will maybe also be a reaction to the whole AI trend where people even more so want like real, real stuff, real people, real engagement. Um, and, and I think my opinion on AI, which is definitely something to stay in, uh, probably the, uh, biggest invention, so to speak in, in, in, in, in, in, in our generation. Uh, I think it will run more in the background. I think it will be more a means of being, more efficient in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, uh, maybe being able to also produce content, but, but it won't be those chat GPT, uh, futuristic looking pictures. It will be solutions that were you able to like take a picture of, uh, you and I, and then easier put it in a real setting, but it needs to look real. Um, I, I, I, I don't believe that those fake looking pictures will be, uh, anything. Yeah. I'd like to really ask you if there's, um, just one thing that you should remember, uh, from this conversation. Well, what do you think that needs to be? I, I, I think, I mean, my, my, my advice is, uh, and, and thing to remember is probably not to underestimate when, when new stuff is happening and when new generations are coming. I thought about doing the full cliche, of like Netflix blockbuster kind of it, uh, and I know that's a bit far-fetched, but, but like, I think that a lot of, uh, big brands are underestimating what's, what's happening and how fast it will go with a new generation and a new way of doing stuff. Um, and I know a lot of, a lot of companies and a lot of brands and mergers right now are having a, a, a difficult time. Um, I do know that, uh, some of the brands that are super Gen Z friendly and are doing that offensive content. We have some here in, in Copenhagen. Um, I saw one of their, uh, financial statements or annual reports and, and they don't have issues. Let me say it like that. So I think like in, invest in that future, uh, even though it's not, it, it might not be tomorrow, but like prepare for it because if you do it like total panic, uh, closing time, you've already lost to the, to the new wave. So, so, so, so, not to create crisis and, and, and, and all stuff, but, but, but the world will look totally different only five years from now. And, and I think brands need to, uh, grasp that. I think that's, um, that's a great method to sort of wrap this, um, discussion up. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you about this. Um, I've definitely had the experience myself as a 48 year old, uh, or 47 soon 48 that, oh, there is actually something that I may not be completely familiar with. And that sounds just slightly sort of, um, out of tune with how I grew up and what I learned. And, um, it sounds like a, I mean, if we could bridge that generational gap through, um, sort of technologies and sort of that whole idea that you come with, I I'd say that's pretty wonderful. So can people, uh, connect with you on, on LinkedIn or find you somewhere else? Definitely. I would say LinkedIn is my main, main business thing right now. So, uh, people always ready to, I'm always ready to have a talk. Also just, uh, I mean, if I can inspire or at least talk about what we are seeing and why we think that this is the future. Um, I'm always happy to, uh, to talk to people about that. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Christoffer. Thanks for having me.