You are a so-called Klaviyo Community Champion. Start by just telling us what that is about. Okay, so Klaviyo is a data platform and they needed advocates and the basic, the best users from the platform to help them preach what the community is about. So when we started, the first time I was a Klaviyo Champion in 2024, it was more centered about the community itself. It's like a hub where you can ask questions and someone helps you. And they needed experts to guide how to use Klaviyo in different ways. The funny thing is that was how we did it in 2024 and now we've slowly transitioned into a different vibe around the community. We're more experts sharing our knowledge across the Klaviyo omniverse, as they call it themselves. Where Klaviyo has advanced what they do massively within the last few years, offering more products, more technology, more integrations that allows the users to do more with Klaviyo. But the issue with Klaviyo is that you never know where to start because Klaviyo originated as an ESP where you just send emails and adding more on top of that is much more complex for the average user than than not. So a lot of people fall back to just sending emails. What we do in the community is help advocate some of the different products and help the users understand how they can utilize the different functionalities inside of Klaviyo to gain more depth in their marketing setup. Because Klaviyo is not just an email marketing platform. It's a data platform that hosts so much data. For a lot of users, this data is a massive unstructured mess. But when you put it all together and you find the structure and you use that structure, that's where the magic happens in my opinion. And that's what we as Klaviyo champions help the users do. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I want to get back to Klaviyo more later in our conversation today. I'm passionate about Klaviyo, so apologies for that. That's perfect. We're now integrating deeply with Klaviyo. So it's super interesting for us from Hello Retail as well to hear more about both the community and your sort of view on how to make the most of the data platform. Yeah. So that's great. But let's sort of start or sort of go back a little bit and talk about what's changing in email marketing at the moment. I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts around right now, what is changing in email marketing and retention. You're the head of email marketing and retention at Fabo. Yeah. So you're the perfect person to talk about that. Yeah. And I'm curious about what kinds of conversations do you have with customers at the moment about what they need to adapt to right now. So not a year ago, not in the future, but right here now. Yeah. Amazing. And a really good question because email marketing in general is a really complex task. You have the technical stuff, you have all the design, the layouts, and how it renders in the different email providers. You have the communication, you have the overall strategy, and then you have to integrate that into something that makes sense. So what I'm basically mostly talking with my clients about at the moment is looking at life cycle stages. When you send out an email campaign most of the time, and I still see this, even though I've been preaching for so long that it should not be how we do it, it still happens all the time because it's hard. It's a difficult task to attack, so to speak. People send out to all the subscribers at once, not differentiating the message or the content and just sending it out. And what I continuously preach is that we need to differentiate because you have your most loyal customers who have purchased from you 20 times and you have a lead that signed up a week ago. Would you communicate differently to the most loyal client you have in regards to another client that just walked in the door that you just met? Would you differentiate your communication for those, like in a personal setting? Yeah, absolutely. So what do you mean by your life cycle in this context here? I mean it's about sort of getting to a better state of personalization fundamentally, right? Yeah, exactly. So it's looking at are you a new customer? Is it the first time you purchased? Maybe we need to hold your hand a bit more. Have you purchased with us a thousand times? And you know the drill. We're not going to interrupt you. We're just going to acknowledge you and what you are and that we appreciate you. Some of the best performing emails we send out are emails just saying thank you and saying, okay, we see you. We appreciate you. Interesting. Yeah. Then you can, you can brands do this very differently how they determine the life cycle stages. And of course it is different from what kind of brand you are. Obviously in Faber we work with life cycle apparel and fashion brands in the in e-commerce that are scaling. So they're still getting to know their tone of voice, getting to know what, what is their brand. And that's also something that we help them build. But to be where I would start saying, okay, I have customers, I have leads that I have yet to purchase. I would communicate to them in a certain way, making sure that they feel seen, making sure that there are no unanswered questions and making sure that they know that we'll be here when they need us. Because we want to deliver a good experience with the brand. Ultimately, that's all we want to achieve. Yeah. But for from your not yet converted subscribers to your new customers, to your lapsed customers who have purchased once but have not made the second purchase and become somewhat of a loyal customer, already there you have a massive opportunity to communicate differently to your subscribers because the data is there. And it's quite easy to find inside of Klaviyo. So if you know how to look at your customer base, your subscriber base, basically, you can just map it out and then differentiate the communication. Yeah. And maybe not send to someone because what we want to achieve is we want to remove all sorts of friction with the brand, with the communication itself. We want to make it as easy as possible to open the email, understand the message and click the buttons. Yeah. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you were saying that the headline is sort of that your customers are now at a point in their sort of maturity where they're ready to get more advanced when it comes to personalization. Yeah. And that's where the life cycle discussion comes in with your clients. Is that Exactly. Correctly understood? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And it's not just within email marketing. It's also across different platforms because we can utilize the data we have inside of Klaviyo and populate it into MaidSack, TikTok, Google, and whatever else platforms out there that we might be using for ads. Right. Yeah. So would you say that the big change that's going on now that customers have become ready to tackle the sort of the personalization beast with your kind of guidance, of course. So what I mean by that is that they've had, there's been availability of this technology for quite a long time. Yeah. And we've certainly experienced that at Hello Retail as well, that we've been working with personalization for so many years. But customers are broadly speaking at very, at sort of wildly different points of maturity. Yeah. When it comes to activating the technology, there's processes in it for them, there's content production, all sorts of hassles that they sort of need to tackle to get real about personalization. Yeah. So, but you were saying, if I understand you correctly, that there's a larger set of customers that are now ready to get more advanced around personalization. Is that how you see it? Yeah. Hopefully, yes. Some people are still trying to understand what it really means because for some, personalization starts and stops with putting in the first name inside of the email. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that doesn't cut it. Obviously, it's a good place to start. But if you ask someone for, like just doing an initial test for asking in the sign-up form, ask one question and make that question relevant for something you want to utilize later. Yeah. Already then, you are collecting zero-party data that you can use for the overall structure on how you communicate. Clients are opening up to the fact that personalization is one of the most important things. Obviously, they listen to what I say because I say it's important and I help them guide the direction. Because when you have a list of, let's say, a hundred thousand subscribers, everyone is unique and people love feeling unique. And if we don't use that, we're throwing money under the bus. Yeah. You're making a sort of become bland communication. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And in my opinion, that's how you can differentiate yourself as a brand in the inbox. So, I wanted to ask you, if you feel that you are absolutely nowhere on personalization, how do you start? Okay. Good question. Where I would start is collecting the data. Have your sign-up form as it is. Start by getting a micro-commitment. Ask them a question. An example. In the sign-up form. In the sign-up form. Yeah. And make sure that this question is submitting a hidden field with a custom property so we can utilize the data later on. For example, for a jewelry brand, I prefer golden jewelry. So, usually brands have silver, gold, rose gold, you name it. Ask them what they prefer because you're typically either or and there will be some member trainers. But for example, here's the form populates. It's a new customer. Sorry, a new lead. And you ask them, what are you looking for? Silver jewelry, golden jewelry or a mix of both? And then from there, they click the button. We collect their consent. And now we have that data. So, we can populate relevant emails besides from that. Yeah. Beyond that touch point. The first email is you're obviously a golden girly or something and you only show jewelry in gold. And then you continue to do that across the journey because you're not going to naturally transition. And you can challenge me on this one, but you're not naturally going to transition because the type of jewelry you wear is typically aligned with your skin tone and such. Yeah. So, that's one place to start. A second place to start is looking at your subscriber base and then segmenting it. Because yes, segmentation and personalization are two different things. But if you have a structure for it, you can differentiate your messages where you acknowledge the life cycle stage of the subscriber you're communicating to. So, you just want to group your data. Basically, you want to group your data and you want to differentiate your communication based off of that. And don't start like overdoing it because it can become a really complex task. The goal is to make it as simple as possible for you to achieve this. Because if you're overcomplicating, you're never going to succeed. And it's going to take you forever to just send out an email because you want a hundred thousand different variations of this exact email. So, maybe piling up your hasn't converted yet and has converted. Could be a start. That's a starting point. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great case where you sort of explain how to get started. Since you're deeply into Klaview, I'd love to hear about the flip side as well. When you're in front of a really advanced customer who's ready to not just get started with personalization in email marketing and other touch points, but they're ready to sort of do something really advanced, what might that look like? Or maybe give an example of your work together with a customer where it's sort of like next level use of Klaview. I love working with ShowHideLogix. Everything is running in the background with the tagging structure that is built out of the questions I ask in the sign-up forum. The first-party data I get directly from integration and from Shopify. And from there, I really like using the ShowHideLogix because it allows me to do in-mail personalization. So I can send the same email out to everyone, but all the content inside is thoroughly thought through to match the tag that has been assigned to you previously. So an example of that, I've worked with a lot of jewelry brands. Bear with me. Bear with me. Another jewelry brand. They sell to both men and women. And I don't want to show a man with no shirt on wearing super nice jewelry to all the women because they're, obviously they're probably going to be like, okay. Sure. Yeah. But what I want to is only show this to the men because then they can inspire and they can look at the jewelry and they can be like, oh, I want to look like that. And I want to do the same thing for the women. So in order to not, the overall communication has the same message. Sale is now, blah, blah, blah. But all the content inside of the email, I will use the ShowHideLogix beta based off of its gender tagging that I've created inside of Klaviyo that's fully automated running in the background. So I can showcase what they will be interested in seeing. And of course, it's not 100% bulletproof. Because for some, I won't be able to tag them because I won't know what their interest is. But then I will have like a fallback for them displaying both men and male and female jewelry. Yeah, that's great. I sort of realized that we're maybe doing this in a funny order, but I also do really want to hear more about your story. What was your background? How did you get to FABO? How did you become so interested in email marketing and Klaviyo? Can you give a sort of an introduction to yourself and how you got here? Yes. It's a funny story. And I started, well, in 2012, when I finished my gymnasium education, I was 100% certain I was going to be working with CSR, climate change, you name it. I was a bit before my time. But I grew up in a family very caring for nature. So that for me was very important at the time, still is, of course. So I just, I took whatever education I was taking and centered it around CSR and like helping the planet and sustaining our planet for that. Yeah. Um, then I, um, I did that during my bachelor's degree and my master's degree as well. A funny thing happened because on my bachelor's degree, I was, um, I had Spanish as well. And I realized that I really like the dynamics and the, okay, Spanish is a really complicated language. If you don't, if you're not familiar with it. I don't speak Spanish. You don't speak Spanish. Okay. It's very complex because, um, you have one verb and you can bend that in a thousand different ways based off of what sentence is it is a part of. And that the, the rules and the dynamics really interested me. And I think that was the starting point for why I'm where I'm at today. That makes sense. Because when I then graduated from, um, my master's, when I finished my master's degree, I started working with CSR and I was, because I have a master in corporate communication, I also did communication stuff. So I became the technical lead of setting up a course platform. Um, and while centering it all around CSR, I realized that all the building, the infrastructure, the communication, everything surrounding all the touch points was really what drove me in the end. Then I realized, okay, maybe it doesn't have to be, um, CSR. Maybe that's not really what drives me. I can do that on my own time. Um, do what I can do to sustain the planet. Um, and contribute. Um, but you know, when you get that feeling where you're just sitting in front of your computer and time just passes. I do. Yeah. And then you're like, Oh my God, is it four o'clock already? Yeah. Happens to me every day. Yeah. Um, so from there I was like, okay, maybe I should start working with communication more specifically, the infrastructural, um, data, um, surrounding subscribers and leads. So I started as a consultant, um, at a different agency. That's where I really took off and I became super specialized in a really short time. And that happens quite automatically because when I engage in something, I engage with everything I am with my heart and my soul and my brain. Um, and I am self-taught most of the way. Of course, I've had some people around me who know a lot, but I have been driven by my own natural curiosity. Um, and then from one agency to another to now I'm at FABO. Yeah. Um, and I've been there for one and a half years now. And just in that period of time, I've learned so much. I'm advancing every day. I am very, very, um, aware of all the things that I don't know. And I think that that is what helps me along the way. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. I'd love to hear about your sort of a typical client meeting. Yeah. Um, what do customers come to you and FABO, uh, to get help with? Yeah. Um, good question. In FABO, we have different departments. So we're doing like full life cycle, uh, marketing. We have paid social for acquisition, paid search for acquisition as well, email marketing and retention, influencer marketing. And then we have the client strategist that hold the overall client relationship. Um, a typical client meeting would be, um, a mix of all that in a beautiful synergy. So we're not aiming to work in silos. We're aiming to say, okay, paid social and email marketing interacts in this way. And that's how we achieve X, Y, Z. Um, and I think, um, a lot of clients come to us because they've seen an ad online where I feel like our founder is talking about how they've scaled a similar client with our framework. Our framework is based off of theories from some of the leading, um, marketing specialists out there. Um, and it's based off of life cycle marketing and really recognizing where you are in the life cycle. So that's why I'm, I'm very passionate about that. Um, and what people help need help with from us is usually they've, they've grown for quite a while and then they're stagnating. Now they need help to grow again. And that could be by internationalizing, introducing yourself to new markets, completely changing how your infrastructure in your different accounts is set up. Um, or yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. You also, um, had a retention. Yeah. Um, so talk to me about retention. Well, what does that look like in a client collaboration? Yeah. Good question. Um, the, so my department is called email and retention, because I believe that those two are linked very closely. Obviously we can't do all our retention work with email marketing and vice versa, but, uh, retention for me is looking at the customer lifetime value. When we're out collecting the leads, um, from paid activities, we're getting them, we're getting, we're getting their consent and we're putting them, putting them in clay view and we can start communicating. Um, again, with the life cycles I spoke about earlier, you have to map it out to make sure that the leads that you're getting in are actually converting. And then they're converting again and again and again. And if you have that like analysis available to you, you can see where, where the gaps are in your customer journey and where I should maybe set up a new flow, maybe adapt the settings of the flows we already have. But where we win at this again, back to my old point is by doing personalization. the same messages to the same people at all times, you're not going to have an impact. Say for example, you go into a website, you are looking for new shoes because some glass was stuck in your shoe. Um, you go in to the website. Oh, you can get a discount. Amazing. I want that. Do I need it? No, I'm going to purchase anyway. So that's, that's a different question. And you, you sign up, you get the welcome messaging and you need some time to think. You're browsing over the course of a week. You're hitting different buttons. You're looking at different sites. And you continuously get attacked by these retargeting emails that are not relevant to you. They might hold a little picture of the shoe you've been looking at, but the general feel of the email does not feel like it's sent to you. Would that make you purchase? No, absolutely not. I'm a notoriously sort of slow shopper. So, uh, I would, uh, sometimes say it would be more effective to do retargeting six months later or something like that. Uh, but I'm hugely interested in, in sort of getting to that point in email marketing where it actually does feel like this was written to me. Yeah. Um, and how, uh, is that something that you feel that you are achieving with customers where you're actually sending emails that are, you know, perceived as super relevant by the shoppers in the end? Yes and no. Because I, I can do so much. Um, but I don't know all of the hundred thousand subscribers. I iterate and test so much all the time to make sure that we're staying relevant with the communication. We regularly change the content to make sure that what we've set up is, um, continuing to drive impact because there's an old understanding about email marketing and flows in general, where, uh, you go out, you pay someone, you pay an agency to set up, um, the flows and then it's just set and forget because they're working in the background. You never need to change that. Yeah. Would you do that with a paid, um, with your paid social activities? Absolutely not. We, I mean, uh, for, for our marketing as well, we would change that every single week and optimize the hell out of it. Yeah, exactly. And that's also what we do, um, in my department and across the entire of FABU because I can lick my finger and put it in the air and say, this is perfect. I don't need to do anything about that, but that would be dumb of me. So in some way, yes, we're achieving it, but I would also say no, because I am so eager to do more and test more and become more, um, knowledgeable about how, um, people are going through the customer journey, how they're interpreting the messages. Because what might seem the most natural for me is not the most natural for the consumer in the end. Right. Yeah. So it feels to me like you're really, um, uh, working hard to, uh, couple your communications background with the understanding of the technology, right? Yeah. Is that a fair sort of way to look at your work? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's, um, I, uh, we need, um, I'd love to talk a bit more about Klaviyo. Um, you were, um, an expert in Klaviyo. Uh, you're part of their, uh, community champion, uh, program. Yeah. Um, just, you know, what, what's the, what's the vibe or what's the energy in the Klaviyo community, um, today in 2026? Um, how, how, how close-knit is it? Um, what's important to you about it? Um, can I tell a story? For sure. Yeah. The first time I met up with the community champions in 2024 was in Boston. Uh, we were invited for, um, the community, um, kickoff, uh, thing in, I think it was August. Um, how many are you? Uh, back then we were only like 25. Okay. Last year we were around 40. Okay. And I haven't counted, but I see that we're around 70, 80 this year. So it's rapidly growing. Yeah. And you were just appointed, uh, 2026 champion. Exactly. Yeah. So this is my, thank you. Uh, this is my third year as a champion. So I am, I've been growing with it, so to speak. The vibe, um, that I had the first time I sat down in the room with these other champions. Of course we were 25 back then. It's a little different now. We're almost 80. Um, something magical happened inside of me because I am used to having to explain myself in a lot of ways because not everyone understands Clavio like I do, but I got put in a room with 24 other equally passionate people. And I felt like I was, I haven't never surfed, but I felt like I was riding that wave big time. Um, and I, that felt amazing. And I think that's what I feel every time I sit down in a round table with them, when I sit down and write my content, because everyone is just eager to help each other, share, uh, strategies, share problems they're facing. We have a direct link to the, to Clavio as well inside of our Slack channel. So we can say, Hey, I'm experiencing this, and then Clavio fixes it ASAP. Um, so the vibe is really appreciative towards what we have together because beautiful things happen when you, when you gather people that are equally passionate. In my opinion. That's great. That's great. Um, I wanted, um, to ask you as well, um, about AI and it can be in relation to, to Clavio or not, but I basically wanted to hear what's fascinating you the most about your practical application of AI in your work right now. Yeah. Really good question. Cause I love AI and I'm riding that wave as well to use that metaphor. Um, but I see that it's so difficult for so many people to understand how to use it. Um, so the task of narrowing it down is what I do each and every day. And every time I open Cloud, Gemini, JetGPT, they all have their, um, unique, um, best, best things they're good at. Um, so for me, what I use AI most for is workflow automation. I used, I built a lot of gems, cloud projects to help me and my specialists understand the infrastructure of what we're doing. So I'm indirectly helping them utilize and do personalization even more by having built a cloud project for that forces them to use personalization. But what I don't want in AI is having everything feel general generic and unpersonal. You mean, uh, like, uh, for content generation, for content generation. Yeah. Sorry. I wasn't specific about that. No, no, that makes sense. Yeah. Um, but I use AI quite a lot. Um, but I see a lot of people who use it in the wrong way. Yeah. Because AI can do so much. And you're seeing customers use it the wrong way, you see, or at least when, when they come to you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so easy to end up in a, in a rabbit hole when you use AI, because all of a sudden you keep getting introduced to all of these new fascinating things you can do integrations and it can do that in this and XYZ and you're stuck having overcomplicated, overcomplicated a simple task. And now you're trying to do something entirely different, for example. Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense to me. I think, um, we're certainly also seeing examples where, you know, um, a customer might have become very used to using one of the, uh, the core chat bots, right? But they're also a little bit stuck in what they learned about how to use AI a couple of years ago. And then they're fundamentally doing the same again and again, whereas AI has changed so, um, exceptionally fast the past couple of years. Um, so we're, we're, we're definitely seeing, seeing that as well. Yeah. Um, I'd like to, um, sort of in relation to AI, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you stay relevant when the ground is sort of shifting, uh, beneath your feet, uh, to, to, to AI. Um, what are your, your thoughts on, you know, as people get better and better at automating some of the, the tactics and tools and processes in the complete Martech stack? Um, how do you feel you need to, what do you need to do to stay relevant as a, as a leader of email and retention? Really good question. And I would say using AI the right way. And what is the right way? Good question. Um, for me using AI for content generation is not necessarily, uh, what I want to achieve, uh, because everyone does that. You, how can I, uh, you write an email about this in, um, in two seconds? Yes. And then you get an output and you paste it and you stop thinking, you don't read it. You say, that's fine. That's the, that's the most concerning bit for me. How I stay relevant is utilizing, um, more, uh, AI in a more advanced way for both workflow organization, helping me analyze data, seeing gaps, um, populating from one platform to another, integrating with our task management system, making sure that everything is aligned. So we have overall structure, um, because that is what ultimately will remove the barriers for the specialist and myself to focus on what's actually impactful for the clients. Um, um, and, um, another thing that I think is really interesting and something that Klaviyo has been working on for, um, some years now is the predictive analytics part of it. Um, you can populate recommendations based off of what a customer might like, um, that's 100% dynamic and you can set that up in Klaviyo. And I prefer that over a static feed all day, every day. Um, you can also, you have the predictive, predictive analytics, uh, part of every profile. So when have they purchased last? How long is there? What is the frequency between their purchases? That data is a gold mine. If you use it the right way. Well, can I ask, well, what is the, um, the actually predictive part, uh, of, of what is becoming sort of actionable outside or coming out of Klaviyo? Let me try to rephrase it. I, I'm, um, sort of, I come from a background where predictive analytics was also, uh, sort of something we always wanted to get to in content management and digital experience management, for example, um, where, where I sort of came from before getting into e-commerce. Um, so I'm, I'm super interested in hearing, um, what's your experience in Klaviyo today about predictive analytics? When does it actually become predictive, so to speak? Yeah. Well, it is available for all, um, at a more general level. If I, if I were a client of Klaviyo, I would, uh, sign up for marketing analytics inside of Klaviyo because then you can unlock the RFM analysis. You can, um, unlock, uh, next best, next best product recommendations. Um, and then you get like a, a secondary hop apart from everything else you're doing where you have the dashboards, you have availability. You can see the gaps in the customer journey and you can act on that. Yeah. So what, uh, in, in that sort of direction, what is lacking right now that you would really, that you would really like to have to do personalization even better? What's your hope for sort of getting either from Klaviyo or other tools to improve the personalization experience for the shopper in the end? If I can just respond to the, the, the, the, um, what I would, um, think is needed for, um, doing more personalization in general and doing it better, a general understanding of it, a better understanding of it because it's still out there. You mean on the, on the customer side? On the customer side. So the people that you're collaborating with need to come to a sort of a higher level of sophistication? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. Okay. And like for email marketing and personalization to be linked, uh, much more closely because I think for a lot of the clients that I work with and the clients that I talk with and for what I hear here in Denmark is that, uh, we're just sending out to our entire list. Oh, so they're still sending blast emails. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I respect that. You do you. Um, but I would love to help them go from, uh, sending out to everyone to sending out to everyone in a more personalized way where we differentiate the messages. So a greater understanding of how you utilize personalization across, uh, your email marketing, but also in the other, um, right channels. Yeah. I mean, interesting. And if you, you know, your goal is to create, um, sort of better personalization fundamentally and get better retention from doing so. So if you look at all of the technology that you're working with, both Klaviyo, but also other tools, what's missing for you to sort of get to the dream state of personalization when it, when it, when it comes to the technology that you're using, are you sort of, do you feel if I ask it differently, do you feel that there are roadblocks in your work where you would love to make it even more personalized, but it's actually not quite possible. You're lacking the data, you're lacking the tools to do it. Uh, yes, that happens almost every day. Okay. Yeah. Because I, give me an example of that. Yeah. What might be a, an experience of sort of stumbling into something where you've, you realize, okay, I can't actually do what I want to do. Yeah. Well, the way I work with personalization just to begin with is for example, in flows, you have the payload, from the event someone is, has done that is triggering a flow. I take that data manipulated into something that makes sense and is 100% relevant for the subscriber that will receive this email. I will also have some custom properties available on the profile so I can make lookups for what is your favorite color, what is your favorite dish. So I can say, for example, if you're shopping for pants, not pants, but pants, you want to make food. Yeah. And I, in my sign-out form, asked you, what's your favorite dish. Then I can populate something called, uh, well, something going like, uh, for the next time you're going to make your favorite dish where I populate their answer, um, and has favorite dish as a fallback. So it, I don't look stupid in the inbox. Um, this would be the perfect fit because then you have like, oh my God, they remember. Um, and that is as far as I can take it without introducing other tools. Obviously, I have my, I, I gave you in the Shopify integration and some other tools. I have triple whale and you name it. Um, but the missing link for me is making it even more personal without having to set up a thousand different branches inside of your flows. Right. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, related to that, could you maybe talk about timing of emails? Um, that's a, a topic we're sort of super obsessive about here at hello retail. We, we feel it's such an important part of the personalized experience for a shopper to get the email at the right point in time, either of your, sort of your overall, um, shopping journey in a category or, uh, just the time of day, or it can be on a number of different sort of, um, vectors. So, well, how do you work with, with timing with your customers or what do you see missing? Maybe, uh, I'm just interested in everything about timing and email marketing. Yeah. And that is also a really interesting aspect because for example, if I receive an email right now, because a brand out there has decided that this is the best time to send, I'm probably not going to look at my email for the next few hours. So is it still the best time to send if I'm not not available? There's a thing between when do we send something, when do they receive it and when do they engage with it? And the last part is the most important for me. So for example, in the timing of the flows, I try to keep it as close to the, to their actions as possible. So when they view a product, I retarget them within 30 minutes because then I still, I'm still in there somewhere. They haven't completely forgotten me as a brand, for example. And then what I do is specifically for the follow-up email, email number two is I targeted at the exact same time the day before as they were doing the action because this might be their window, window, uh, of shopping. Yeah. Me, for example, I shop most between 11 and 12 at night. Yeah. When do you shop? Oh, that's a, that's a great question. I, I'm not sure I'm even sort of running the, the pattern recognition in my head about when, when that might be, but yeah, late at night for sure. Sometimes very early in the morning, like it can be 6am as well. Yeah, same for me. Yeah. Um, so, but there are definitely sort of large chunks of the day where I would not shop and I, I'm sure if I ran all of my shopping data through some pattern analysis, I would find that certain days of the week as well and so forth. Exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. Obviously around payday is a good day to send out, but I really like using, uh, testing different send times. Yeah. Uh, when we send out campaigns, when we send out SMS, um, we can also use the smart sending, uh, smart send times, uh, to that's a Klaviyo feature. Klaviyo feature. Yeah. Where some AI sends it out at a certain time. I don't, I don't use that too much, but it's something that's on my roadmap to see if it actually makes a significant impact to, um, the engagement metrics. Um, and well, first sending it's hyper, uh, relevant to not only send at, uh, 12 o'clock at one o'clock, 11 o'clock, uh, you name it. Yeah. Um, so I usually like find a weird time, 1137, for example, because then all of the other brands that have sent out at 1130, you're going to be on top in the inbox at the top of the inbox. Um, and then you're relevant. Yeah. That's a nice little hack. Yeah. I can totally see how that, that can work if you were a shopper receiving a ton of, of newsletters or emails. Exactly. And if you've done some work on your persona and who's dropping and your brand, you probably know their day to day. So if you know, they're living in a big city, taking public transportation or biking to work, um, they have a timeframe between 730 and eight where they're not reachable or they're super hyper reachable. Uh, so targeting messages around there makes them achieve something before they go into work. And that is a really good time. Early, early, uh, emails in the morning really perform well. And also late at night. Um, not only because I'm basing everything off of my own shopping patterns, but that's what the data tells me. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think, um, uh, I'd like to sort of slowly wrap this up now and, but, but if you could sort of summarize the discussion here we've had, or just distill it into one method you feel that that's the key sort of takeaway, what would that be? Yeah. Um, taking mind where your customers are, acknowledge them, recognize that they are unique individuals and that they should be treated that way. Because if you're just still communicating the same message to everyone at all times, you're not going to win in the long run because it's so easy to unsubscribe. Gmail even makes it even easier for you now. You can, you don't even have to open the email anymore. Gmail does it for you because if it's irrelevant, it's never going to reach them. So stay relevant in the inbox and think outside of the inbox. How can we activate people to make them feel seen and heard? Because if I give you something, you feel like maybe you should give me something too. And that's the dynamic we're trying to work with. I give you acknowledgement. I give you a discount. I give you a gift with purchase. You want to give something back and that might be a purchase. I know, I know you're also working with, uh, sort of, um, treating email as a communication tool for real dialogue and not just broadcasting messages. So one thing is the uh, sort of the, the personalization of the message. But I know that you're also really working with how can we get people to, to respond or reply to the emails and maybe even start a conversation with brands. Yeah. Talk to me about that. Yeah. So when you send emails, do you, do you, um, expect a response? Uh, from a marketing email, generally not. No, we, we are certainly trying that in our marketing to sort of, um, start a conversation. But honestly, it's been quite hard for, uh, for us to get there as a, as a B2B tech brand. Yeah. 100%. What about your personal emails and your work emails? Do you expect a response? In my, in my... When you write emails... Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. For work? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I do. And not only for, from employees, but also from people that I genuinely like. For me, for example. Like, yes, I would definitely expect a reply. Yes. And that's what email is. Yeah. And email marketing is challenging that so hard. We're expecting some sort of, um, reply. Uh, but the reply is that they click and the communication that's sending over is that, okay, this is kind of relevant. But if you look at email and you zoom out and you get the subscribers to reply to your email, you're actually using email the way it should be used from the get-go. It goes from being a transactional way of communicating to an interactional. So one of the things I would advise all clients to do is have one, um, have one email somewhere in your flow, maybe in the beginning of the journey where you ask your subscribers for feedback, not just click a star and give five stars, ask them for direct feedback. Because that is a data goldmine for you. And it's also really good for deliverability. That's a really sort of fascinating, um, aspect of email marketing. And I think it's hugely underutilized. Uh, it, uh, it's obviously the equivalent to, to social media as well, right? If you're, uh, if you're not treating that as a, as a, as a platform for communication with your clients, you're definitely doing it wrong. Um, but I, I completely get your point that many are not using email that way as it, as it should be. Yeah. That's a great point. And that's something in my opinion, that's really going to spark personalization because if you use it the right way, you can, you can collect the data and map the properties from that. One of the things, sorry, I'm getting really passionate about right now. Um, one of the things that Klaviyo launched last year is the social feature. It's still in beta, but it's, it allows you to make an Instagram post where you have to write a keyword. And when you comment with that keyword, you are directly sent over to a DM where you can interact with an automated response, of course. But if you make that feel personal, it creates a completely different feel from just a click here and do something. Um, because then you can tailor the messaging for them to then subscribe and get into Klaviyo. And then the beginning of the relationship started somewhere else, but it ends up being over here. And if we do not utilize the data we collected here, it's on us. But if we do, we're creating good, experiences in the inbox. Yeah. Taken together. I think that what you just described is sort of the ultimate extreme opposite to the blast email to the whole database, right? Yeah. I love that. That's great. I, I, I'd like to ask you, um, uh, sort of as a way to, to end this conversation, uh, what's your favorite e-commerce business and why? Um, okay. So, um, brands are very visual and I'm a very visual person. So the, my answer is going to be based off of that. And I have two favorites. I hope that's okay. Um, first of all, Meshki, an Australian fashion brand, um, shout out to Liz from, uh, Meshki. She's also a champion and has been for the same time I have the last three years. Um, but they have a toll on their, uh, um, followers on Instagram, on email, everywhere where visually they're just really capturing an innovative brand sense. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. And then the other one is, uh, also based off of the visual, but also based off of the quality. Because for me, one thing is the brand, but do they deliver? Because if they don't deliver, they're never going to spark pretension. Um, and that's Adanola. Okay. Uh, and a UK based brand, um, that has grown massively over the last few years, but I love receiving their emails, not because they're super personalized, but because what they're tapping into gives a vibe each and every time it's not, it doesn't feel, uh, like it has been sent to everyone, even though it has because the email and the content inside of it is giving me a certain feeling like, Oh my God, chocolate is my new favorite color. For example. That is amazing. Yeah. All right. Um, thank you so much for all of these, um, insights. This has been a pretty fascinating, uh, discussion for, for me, um, extremely relevant for pretty much any e-commerce leader, uh, whether you're sort of deep into email marketing and retention or, or not. Um, so I want to thank you for, for that. And, um, uh, with that, um, just, uh, yeah, a big thank you again for, for coming, um, on Hello Retail Conversations. Yeah. Thank you for having me.